It is currently Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:42 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Artist and Design Integrity - Winter Display
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Hants, UK.
This thread is for discussion of the article by Richard Fish: Artist and Design Integrity - Winter Display
http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/winterdisplayintegrity.php


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 16
Location: Whitefish Montana USA
Richard,

I strongly agree that displaying only in leaf is a mistake. For all the reasons you mention most exhibits occur after leaves are flushed out and the beauty of the work in creating the bonsai is hidden.

I am afraid that in the US many deciduous trees could not stand the rigorous test of being shown leafless.

Maybe now with your encouragement more trees will be exhibited in the off-seasons.

Jerry


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:32 pm 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 580
Location: Seattle, WA
Jerry Meislik wrote:
Richard,

I strongly agree that displaying only in leaf is a mistake.

Jerry,

Do you like to see evergreen ficus displayed out of leaf as well? I've seen some photographs of beautifully ramified ficus (e.g. from Taiwan) that have been defoliated for the show. I personally think that they look marvellous but I've always wondered how a "ficus person" would feel about that, knowing full well that the particular species in question never lose their leaves under normal conditions.

Best regards,

Carl


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 16
Location: Whitefish Montana USA
Carl,

I love seeing a Ficus tree in its defoliated state. The Taiwanese even have a separate judging group for defoliated Ficus. They are not judged with the ones in leaf.

The Ficus group, as you well know, is so large that it contains trees that lose foliage each fall and extends to include "evergreen" trees.

To me, looking at a deciduous tree in leaf is only half the story.

This is often manifest at shows where the curious crane above, below and around a well foliaged tree to spot the beauty underneath.

Jerry


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:11 am
Posts: 6469
Location: Michigan USA
Jerry Meislik wrote:
To me, looking at a deciduous tree in leaf is only half the story.


That is most likely the best sentence explaining why we show trees without foliage that I have ever heard.

Will Heath


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:17 pm 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 580
Location: Seattle, WA
Jerry Meislik wrote:
Carl,

I love seeing a Ficus tree in its defoliated state.


I'm glad to hear that. I too think that they are very beautiful that way.

Quote:
The Taiwanese even have a separate judging group for defoliated Ficus.


This I did not know! That is very interesting to hear, and it makes a great deal of sense now that you mention it. Thanks, Jerry.

With my best regards,

Carl


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Hants, UK.
Jerry Meislik wrote:
I am afraid that in the US many deciduous trees could not stand the rigorous test of being shown leafless.

Maybe now with your encouragement more trees will be exhibited in the off-seasons.

Jerry


Jerry,

Thanks for your comments.

I am afraid that in the UK the same situation exists to a large extent also. I hope, that in time, things will begin to change. How this change might be affected is probably worthy of a separate discussion or article. Should we, as aspiring artists, shut ourselves off from the rest of bonsai society and boycott the display of our trees during periods that we consider to be incorrect? Or, should we rather, work within the existing establishment to attempt to recruit other like-minded people to our cause? Or take the 'third way' of showing, by example? The last solution will require some big names to get involved I think, to have any chance of success.

Jerry Meislik wrote:
The Taiwanese even have a separate judging group for defoliated Ficus. They are not judged with the ones in leaf.


Like Carl, I also did not know this before now. I like to think that this fact alone almost proves the point. The Taiwanese are purposefully defoliating evergreen species to show their inner beauty, whilst we take the other extreme of showing trees (that naturally lose their leaves in winter), whilst they are in full leaf!

Regards,

Richard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:12 am 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:25 am
Posts: 115
Location: Dallas, TX
This penchant in the west for preferring the in-leaf image of deciduous bonsai is further reaching than just to our shows. For instance, when working at bonsai nurseries, I have been admonished to slightly over-pot the trees I'm repotting. When I would properly pot a maple or elm in its leafless state, I was often told that the pot was too small - because when the leaves come, the visual volume of the tree increases. And that, I was told, was when the tree would sell.

So here we have an assumption that our maples and elms and beeches, etc... would not sell at retail when in their leafless state and should be prepared (potted) so as to look their best when in "saleable" condition: in-leaf.

So this ideal is prevasive and begins long before we consider showing our trees in an exhibit. This is sad.

Kind regards,

Andy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Four Seasons
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:32 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Midwest USA
The seasonal change is why life and bonsai compliment or reflect one another.

Jerry, I couldn't agree more with your ideas and yes, Andy, we are slowly moving in this direction. Of course I can certainly see your point in nursery sales. They have to turn product. No problem with this.

Carl, you're always quite the gentleman!

best to all,

vance hanna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Artist and Design Integrity - Winter Display
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:21 pm
Posts: 86
Location: New England, USA
Richard,

I think you know how strongly I agree with your sentiments here; I have written many times on the subject myself over the years, and I was as dismayed as you to learn that ABBA had re-scheduled the exhibition. Unfortunately, both here in the USA and in the UK, exhibitions are not run by the bonsai cogniscienti (by those who truly understand the motivations and ideals of the art) but by those who truly understand how to sit in a committee meeting and arrive at a series of compromises between their well-meaning but ill-suited colleagues.

As you point out, Marc Noelanders (an extremely accomplished artist) hosts his exhibition in winter, when deciduous trees and conifers are at their best. Not until the artists themselves undertake the organisation of exhibitions without the involvement of the bonsai politicos, and aim them at a wider art-appreciating audience, can the situation be rectified.

I will, however, take issue with two of your points: First, the Ginkgo exhibition (late September) does allow for deciduous trees to be exhibited naked. The first picture in the album of the last exhibition was of one of my former creations, and English elm. Its current owner, Stefano Frisoni, of Italy, had managed to time the tree's induced autumn precisely, and what a fine job he did, too!

Second, in my experience late winter is better than late autumn for pruning. For one thing, there just seems to be less die-back. For another, in late winter you can more easily detect which buds are most energetic, and where tiny adventitious buds are beginning to form. But hey - whatever works for you!

Colin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Hants, UK.
Colin,

Thanks for your comments. I'll just focus on the points that you raise, rather than our areas of agreement if that's okay.

Colin Lewis wrote:
First, the Ginkgo exhibition (late September) does allow for deciduous trees to be exhibited naked. The first picture in the album of the last exhibition was of one of my former creations, and English elm. Its current owner, Stefano Frisoni, of Italy, had managed to time the tree's induced autumn precisely, and what a fine job he did, too!

An interesting point. I had no idea that that tree was one of your creations and I am pleased that Stefano managed to fool the tree, as in leaf, I am confident that the immensely powerful and aged nature that is revealed naked, would have been diluted. However, with the exception of a hawthorn by Richard Tidey, all other deciduous trees are in leaf. I am left wondering what I am missing when I look at the beech by Jeff Corthouts. When I gaze at Hotsumi Terakawa's maple, I can only imagine what is there hiding under the foliage. It is a story half-told for me unfortunately.
Colin Lewis wrote:
Second, in my experience late winter is better than late autumn for pruning. For one thing, there just seems to be less die-back. For another, in late winter you can more easily detect which buds are most energetic, and where tiny adventitious buds are beginning to form. But hey - whatever works for you!

My teacher's methodology is slightly different to this. We are instructed to prune one year wood in late autumn for the winter image. We then prune again in late winter to set up the tree for the coming growing season. Perhaps this is not so different? I have huge respect for both you and he as instructors and people who have accelerated my learning in this art.

Regards,

Richard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Artist and Design Integrity - Winter Display
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:08 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Toronto
Colin Lewis wrote:
Unfortunately, both here in the USA and in the UK, exhibitions are not run by the bonsai cogniscienti


Ain't it the truth!?!

Them who know grow bonsai. Them who don't (but have the time to) administer it.

Quote:
Not until the artists themselves undertake the organisation of exhibitions without the involvement of the bonsai politicos, and aim them at a wider art-appreciating audience, can the situation be rectified.


I'll buy that.

With the possible exception of the 'art-appreciating audience'. When we stage a show, I would be kidding myself if I thought we're attracting an 'art-appreciating' audience. Mostly, they come in from the rain.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Winter display
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 89
Just a small note from me to this subject. It is very difficult to convince the organisers to put up winter exhibitions here as well. It might be a global problem, if we don?t take Japan into account. Hopefully it might change one day.

In my country (Denmark) I believe the main reason for not exhibit bonsais in leafless mode, are the fact that very few people will be able to exhibit trees in good quality. It takes a long time, and precise and scheduled work, to develop deciduous bonsais with a ramification who deserves to be displayed.

And I can just say that the organising problem here is a problem, because here as well the board members are not artists, but organisers.

I believe it is a point, that artist them selves has to take part and organise a winter exhibition, if the situation shall change in nearer future.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:42 am 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:20 pm
Posts: 494
Location: south of Munich, Germany
For some reasons it is slightly better in Germany.

For many years the main German convention took place in late April or first weeks of May. You should know that this is like February in California or beginning of April on the East Coast.

While this is not the very best time it is still OK. Many deciduous trees have just swollen buds or very fine young foliage.

The trend for very high quailty 'elite' exhibits is away from clubs and organizations to rugged individuals. In Germany that was the spring show in the beginnign of April last year and the fall show in November. This cleary takes into account what is being mentioned in this thread.

But we are still only beginning to understand this issue. 'We' is the more educated bonsai crowd and our beloved bonsai politicians.
Walter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 91
Location: Melbourne, Florida USA
Is this really such a big issue? If it's summer and you want to show the tree without leaves - manually defoliate it. It's a common practice in Taiwan and Florida and other tropical climates.

A bonsai that looks good without leaves will also look good with leaves. One has to recognize that this is the natural process of the tree and there is beauty in both stages.

The Japanese have several shows in other than the winter. The Taikanten is specifically held in Fall to show the deciduous trees in their fall color foliage. The azalea show in Kanuma is in the spring to show the plants in flower. In Taiwan there is a bonsai show nearly every weekend throughout the year.

The comment about bonsai convention organizers not understanding good bonsai by scheduling shows in the summer is indeed a broad statement that grossly mischaracterizes many show organizers. Show schedules are driven by many factors, and balancing them is indeed a difficult task. Having been on several show committees I can tell you many of those organizers understand bonsai and have good trees themselves.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Copyright 2006-2008 The Art of Bonsai Project.
All rights reserved.
Original MSSimplicity Theme created by Matt Sims © 2004
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group