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artofbonsai.org :: View topic - Back to Back - Demonstrations - by Johnson and Wood
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Back to Back - Demonstrations - by Johnson and Wood
http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=475
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Author:  Editorial Staff [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Back to Back - Demonstrations - by Johnson and Wood

This thread is for discussion of the article Back to Back: Demonstrations, by Hector Johnson and Vance Wood. http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_arti ... ations.php

Author:  Vance Wood [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:26 am ]
Post subject: 

So???? Who cares??? That's the problem no one cares enough to even add to the discussion. Not trying to be antagonistic, but if this was as big a problem as many think it is you would think at least someone would have responded one way or the other by now. I can hardly think no one has an opinion.

Author:  Will Heath [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:37 am ]
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Things move at a slower pace here sometimes, our members tend to take their time digesting what they read before responding. I personally find this much more refreshing than the typical sprout before you think mentality that is sometimes prevalent on the web. (I'm sure you agree with me.)

There are a lot of great points in both articles, even though I have read them both a few times over the course of the formatting, editing, and approval process, I am still digesting, I apologize.

Will

Author:  Attila Soos [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:53 am ]
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The demonstartors are between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they have to entertain the audience. Sometimes they travel from far away. And in most cases they don't see the demo material in advance.

What would happen if after 10 minutes of working on the pitiful material, they will tell the audience: "Well, that's all I can do for now, everything else will endanger the life of the tree. You can go home now."

Instead of the above scenario, they will rather take a chance on the tree than disappoint the audience. Sacrificing the tree seems to be a better option than writing off the demo as a disaster.

The blame is both on the club and the demonstrator. The club should have provided better material. And the demonstrator should have requested pictures of the material in advance. Any of these would have been enough to ensure a good demo.

As to dealing with different student personalities, I wouldn't worry much about it. Good student or bad one, a teacher will try to share his knowledge during the workshop. He is paid to do that. It is up to the student to use it or waste it.

Author:  Vance Wood [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:10 pm ]
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No apologies are necessary, I was just stirring the pot. I think this is an important issue and I agree with Atilla, I guess mostly because he agrees with me.

As to the students, well that's a different issue. Until you have had some of the things I have mentioned happen it is easy to say you share your knowledge, on that I agree. But; when you have some individual contradicting everything you say it's like some of the issues you run into on the web without the delete button.

Again I place the majority of the problem in the lap of the Clubs and Organiztions in that they either don't know or don't care about the kinds of problems envolved in Demos and Workshops. When things go badly it is so convininent to blame the teacher. The participants do. Having said that I cannot in my wildest dreams conceive of the Club leadership comming forward and saying; "No No, it was our fault".

Does anyone see any pigs flying over?

Author:  Will Heath [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

Who is to blame the club or group or the demonstrator?

Both.

Clubs are often infiltrated by politics and hence workshops and demos are often planned and arranged to suit the personal viewpoints, philosophies, and agendas of the board members instead of for what would be the most educational and do the most good for the people attending. They are often used to promote local vendors, to accent the skill set of the board members, or otherwise to advance anything but the participants. Clubs also either try to save a buck by purchasing inferior material that can not be used in a constructive way by the visiting master or they do not have the experience necessary to tell quality stock from crap.

Visiting masters are also to blame because with a combined effort they could put a stop to this by simply insisting that they see the stock (pictures of it) first before they will arrive. They can also dictate what they will and will not do and take a "If you want me, then you play by my rules" attitude. "This is what I offer, take it or leave it."

Imagine holding a potters workshop and when the master potter arrived, handing them a chunk of bread dough and an Easy Bake oven (toy oven powered by a light bulb). Do you think they would just go ahead and do the demo? How about an expert on water painting arriving to find a box of crayons and a brown paper bag waiting for them?

In my opinion, it is time for clubs and groups to make a commitment to offer educational seminars, workshops, and demos to it's members and participants and stop playing politics. It is also time for visiting masters to insist on nothing less and stop whoring for the fame and cash, let's put some integerity into the practice, the payoff will be greater in the end.
There will always be demo whores, wanna-be masters who will fill the gaps, let them..people will know the difference.

Will

Author:  Vance Wood [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

You are right Will, but as I pointed out in my article any teacher that would take that position in today's market would find himself not working. The convoluted philosophies that often dictate how these things are done will look for the people that will do what it is they want done and how they want it done.

In short they have a bargain basement program and they look for a bargain basement teacher that will work with bargain basement materials. Unless you have a big name, followed by big fees, it is awfully difficult to dictate terms and still have opportunities to do these kinds of things.

Another issue is in the fees some Clubs and Organizations are willing to pay. There are some organizations out there that are trying to grow so they expect you to do what you do for free, they may pay for materials (if any but only if they are cheap) and lodging if necessary but that's about it.
So unless you happen to be a big named artist that can demand big name prices and work on big buck trees and demand three squares, transportation, lodging and concubines (just joking) you are left with, kind of going with the flow. That's the real problem in the USA, there is a lack of real respect for people that do these kind of things. In my way of looking at it, the teacher in some respects is as much a victim as the participants in the workshop. They just know it sooner.

It is for all of the reasons I have pointed out above and in the article I usually try to furnish both the demo tree and the workshop material, at least then I know what I am getting involved with before I start having to count the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Author:  Hector Johnson [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

You are right, all of you.
I have seen some appalling crap offered up as sacrifices by the clubs that I have been to, as demo material.

Asking a visiting master to create a masterpiece from "$20 stock you could all afford" is an insult and a waste of time.

I would far prefer to see a master artist restyle a $2000 tree that has great potential, than try to create toffee from dog manure. Hell, even a $500 piece of high quality stock would be far preferable.

In fact, seeing a demo where $20, $100, $500 and $2500 plants are reworked would be of far more educational benefit, in my view.

That would ensure the stock plants are raised to their next level of potential, all in one sitting. Does anyone do such demos/workshops?

Author:  Attila Soos [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:


Author:  Hector Johnson [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:14 pm ]
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Author:  Vance Wood [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:27 pm ]
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Author:  Attila Soos [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:


Author:  Vance Wood [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:58 pm ]
Post subject: 


Author:  Rob Kempinski [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:37 am ]
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Author:  Vance Wood [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:09 am ]
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