[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
artofbonsai.org • View topic - It's All Mr. Yoshimura's Fault
It is currently Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:44 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:25 pm 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:13 am
Posts: 1190
Location: Los Angeles, California


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 383
You're right, I should get off my tall horse. Sometimes I allow some people to rent space in my head and I shouldn't.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:06 pm 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 383


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:51 am
Posts: 2
Location: Detroit


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:11 am
Posts: 6469
Location: Michigan USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:30 pm 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 383


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 515
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Without wanting to get into the fray between two people... might I suggest that students attain at least a level of proficiency before they question their teachers?
I don't think it's too fine a point to put on it that people recent to bonsai simply don't "get" the "wabi sabi"/ "shibui" precepts and tend to put their trees in gaudy pots. When challenged on this, their argument is often that the pots are available, so they must be acceptable.
As an aside... I'm certain that I don't understand either of those Japanese concepts, any more than I understand a Buddhist's enlightenment or a Christian's "Hallelujah Moment". I do understand enough to know that I don't know, so I'll go with the flow for now.
Use of gaudy pots is rare, even in Penjing. In fact, look at the last few years' worth of Taiwan Exhibition (Arguably the most "Chinese" of the world's bonsai shows) trees and I would guess that fewer than one percent of trees go into decorated pots, and they tend to be very stately, handsome, big trees that can pull off such a stunt. Even then, it is likely the pot hails from a much earlier time and is the focal point of the composition, rather than complimentary to the tree.
Pots used for bonsai now are generally far more austere than they were 100 years ago, when barberpole stripes and deep urn-shaped pots were more often used. These are the sort of pots that we now use as decorative graden planters.
The use of flat, austere pots sprang out of the practice of using incense burner trays, for the most part.
Putting trees that really are not ready for a quality pot into a quality, unglazed or glazed ceramic pots is probably more indicative of the owner's need for instant gratification and self-aggrandisement than it is of any level of refinement or taste.
I've started this argument, albeit tangentially, in other places, with fairly predictable results.
If the tree can't support the pot then don't pot it. Take up collecting pots or something, but don't adulterate the art for a simple lack of knowledge and a bit of impatience.
Tradition is a large part of the appeal of bonsai. I wouldn't take the results of a few avant-garde pottery shows to be anything other than a willingness on the part of a couple of editors making a fuss of something different, not dissimilar to the 19th century practice of making women with beards into circus attractions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:51 am
Posts: 2
Location: Detroit
I have made a grave error. I didn't make any attempt to make it clear that only the beginning and ending paragraphs had anything to do with Vance. Everything in-between was about other people, and me.
I apologize to Vance for allowing him to think otherwise.
Vance is absolutely right that I asked him about styling the yew "right now", and he made it clear that there was only one option "right now". He is also right that people at my level often buy stuff which, in retrospect, is not readily champion material within the first week. At my level, learning to shop better is certainly an important part of my learning curve, and much lies ahead of me. Vance is always frank, and if I had asked him whether the yew should be styled or grown-on, we all know what he would have said.
Vance and I have never spoken of pots. All the trees we have worked on are all still in training pots, and I am still learning how to keep them alive and growing-on well enough so that someday, they will be worthy of a proper pot.
Also, Vance and I have never spoken of Japanese/Chinese/Whatever higher philosophical matters, so my railing against imitating Japanese thinking doesn't apply to him either. I'm attacking you other guys.
Once again, I apologize for not making myself clear enough to avoid this mis-understanding.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 515
Location: Brisbane, Australia
And my reply, apart from the first paragraph, had nothing to do with your discussion with Vance.
It was a rebuttal of your views on pots, in the Eristic (Argumentative) section of our website.
It is a common mistake for people new to bonsai to select pots that are pretty, or to criticise pots they see as dull. It's part of the evolution of a bonsai enthusiast, in my view... as is their need to overcome their penchant for instant gratification.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:11 am
Posts: 6469
Location: Michigan USA
I have heard (and once made) the pot argument and also asking the question why should we blindly follow Japanese tradition when selecting a pot.
The answer is that it is not a Japanese tradition at all, the guidelines for selecting a pot are used because they work, nothing more, nothing less.
Chinese Penjing? Take a look at Brooks gallery, a Chinese Penjing artist, considered by many to be the best. http://www.artofbonsai.org/articles/gallery_steven.php
European Bonsai? Take a look at Walter Pall's gallery, certainly world-class without a doubt and a leading innovator of the naturalistic bonsai movement. http://www.artofbonsai.org/articles/gallery_pall.php
Indonesia Bonsai? Robert Steven's gallery contains a unique blend of bonsai and Penjing, certainly ground breaking stuff also. http://artofbonsai.org/articles/gallery_steven.php
American Bonsai? Take a look at Nick Lenz's gallery, he is without a doubt blazing trails with his bonsai creations. http://www.artofbonsai.org/articles/gal_lenz05.php
The common denominator of these four artists, all from different countries is that most of the pots they choose is what is commonly labeled as traditional.
Accent pots break from the norm as they always have, but not so far as to lose the simple natural beauty we have come to love and expect in a pot. For an example, see Horst's gallery. http://artofbonsai.org/articles/gallery_horst.php

Will


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:45 am 
Offline
Editor

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 383
There is also the more practical issue of durability. Unless you grow nothing but indoor/tropical trees, or you are willing to remove each tree planted in a questionable pot for winter storage you have to consider whether or not a particular pot will hold up to a cold winter year after year.
Most Japanese pots fall into this category, some Chinese do, a few Korean pots will endure. I am not certain about some of the European makers, I just assume they will. But, all are more expensive than the traditional clay terra cotta pots you commonly see in nurseries. These pots you can consider lucky to survive one winter outdoors.
So there is a lot more to selecting pots than asthetics.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 515
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:08 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Zone6 Columbus oHIo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 515
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:08 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Zone6 Columbus oHIo


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
cron
Copyright 2006-2008 The Art of Bonsai Project.
All rights reserved.
Original MSSimplicity Theme created by Matt Sims © 2004
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group